Please explain to me what are the ill effects of using a sealant, such as Ultimate Wax, after products such as ColorX or #301?
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Re: Sealant Question
Is the wax in those two products (ColorX, #301) synthetic, carnauba or hybrid? Does the presence of carnauba have a negative effect under Ultimate Wax?
"fishing for swirls in a sea of black"
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David
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Re: Sealant Question
Please explain to me what are the ill effects of using a sealant, such as Ultimate Wax, after products such as ColorX or #301?Is the wax in those two products (ColorX, #301) synthetic, carnauba or hybrid? Does the presence of carnauba have a negative effect under Ultimate Wax?
I think wifpd4 is concerned that the ColorX or the #301 are going to cover the paint and prevent the Ultimate Wax from bonding with the paint. Similar to using M21 before M26, the M26 is there for the carnuba look while the M21 is there for longevity.
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Re: Sealant Question
Originally posted by davidcam View PostI think wifpd4 is concerned that the ColorX or the #301 are going to cover the paint and prevent the Ultimate Wax from bonding with the paint. Similar to using M21 before M26, the M26 is there for the carnuba look while the M21 is there for longevity.
Please don't tell me not to do it, explain what happens if I do it and why not to do it. I want to understand the "mechanics" of why not.
"fishing for swirls in a sea of black"
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David
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Re: Sealant Question
ColorX, D301 Finishing Wax, M20 Polymer Sealant, M26 High Tech Yellow Wax and D151 PRC are hybrid waxes: blends of natural and synthetic ingredients.
Probably Gold Class Carnauba Plus, Deep Crystal Carnauba Wax and M16 Professional Paste Wax would offer most of natural look.
Carnauba based waxes tend to wash off easier than synthetic waxes. It's based on how they bond to paint surfaces: synthetics form a cross-link while naturals cover surfaces like a shell. Whenever wax layering is required sealants go first, before carnauba, as they provide longer and stronger protection.
Finishing waxes (without cleaners) should be put on paint surface which is prepared for it: above surface contaminants removed by claying, below surface defects removed by pre-wax cleaner/ polish otherwise the final affect won't be so visible.
Some detailers reported that they had problems with wax durability after put on top of D301 Finishing Wax. I remember that during Detail Fest 2011 Meguiar's DA MF System Class, Jason Rose compared D301 durability as similar to M26 High Tech Yellow Wax. So it means that D301 by itself can offer pretty good sacrificial barrier.
The easy way around this issue would be to use D300 and then follow with M205 and a finishing wax.
I observed durability of several waxes/ sealants on top of D151 PRC and ColorX and never caught any lack of long protection. I also toped D301 with other protecting products and didn't catch sagnificant protection shortage either. I guess it all depends on how vehicles are cared for after detailing and fresh coat of wax put on them plus enviromental conditions and load of daily usage.
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Re: Sealant Question
It's being recommended not to put a longer lasting product on a lesser lasting product, yet it's a common practice to top M07 with wax/sealant and M07 has no longevity on it's own. This takes me back to the original question, is it the presence of the carnauba in ColorX or #301 that causes a sealant to not cross link effectively.
This question is being driven by two cars I just finished one rather delicate, cleaned with ColorX; the other an average clear coat, cleaned with #301 and both then waxed with Gold Class Plus. I would have preferred Ultimate Wax for longevity, but deferred to GC+ due to fears of using a sealant over carnauba.
"fishing for swirls in a sea of black"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David
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Re: Sealant Question
David,
This article by Mike Phillips goes deeply into your subject:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/...t-bonding.html
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Re: Sealant Question
That article by our former forum Admin essentially states what we at Meguiar's have always said about this; all of our products are cross compatible with each other, so using any of them in any combination is not going to be an issue (unless, of course you wax first and then use a paint cleaner, but this is where common sense can really help a person out!). But as was also stated in that article, and something we've stated repeatedly here on MOL, if a manufacturer explicitly states that their synthetic should only be applied to paint that is stripped of all other polishes, waxes, etc then you should follow those directions. For the record, Meguiar's has never made this recommendation for any of our waxes or sealants.
Now, for those who routinely use both a full synthetic and a carnauba product, the reasoning for putting the carnauba down last is two fold - first, there's the seemingly logical reasoning of putting down the shortest lived product last so that it becomes the sacrificial barrier over the longest lived product (although logic alone doesn't always prove the point) and second, many who do this two part process started doing it because they want the longer lasting properties of the synthetic but feel that they get a better look from a carnauba, so the better looking product (in their eyes) goes on top. Yeah, OK, in that second scenario logic maybe does tell the whole story. Maybe.Michael Stoops
Senior Global Product & Training Specialist | Meguiar's Inc.
Remember, this hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need therapy.
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Re: Sealant Question
Originally posted by Michael Stoops View PostThat article by our former forum Admin essentially states what we at Meguiar's have always said about this; all of our products are cross compatible with each other, so using any of them in any combination is not going to be an issue (unless, of course you wax first and then use a paint cleaner, but this is where common sense can really help a person out!). But as was also stated in that article, and something we've stated repeatedly here on MOL, if a manufacturer explicitly states that their synthetic should only be applied to paint that is stripped of all other polishes, waxes, etc then you should follow those directions. For the record, Meguiar's has never made this recommendation for any of our waxes or sealants.
Now, for those who routinely use both a full synthetic and a carnauba product, the reasoning for putting the carnauba down first is two fold - first, there's the seemingly logical reasoning of putting down the shortest lived product last so that it becomes the sacrificial barrier over the longest lived product (although logic alone doesn't always prove the point) and second, many who do this two part process started doing it because they want the longer lasting properties of the synthetic but feel that they get a better look from a carnauba, so the better looking product (in their eyes) goes on top. Yeah, OK, in that second scenario logic maybe does tell the whole story. Maybe.
"...the reasoning for putting the carnauba down first is two fold..."
Michael did you mean the inverse of this? Carnauba down last?
Quoting from numerous locations:
"A wax, (natural or synthetic), is a substance that when applied to a surface will not adhere properly on its own. Thus, it is necessary to add specialized miscible oils to allow the waxy material to spread and adhere evenly to the surface. These oils along with polymers are responsible for improving the functionality of the wax protection, appearance, adherence and the overall application."
I'm going to infer from our current discussions, that carnauba is immiscible and therefore using ColorX or #301, which contain some carnauba, when topped with Ultimate Wax would prevent or reduce the cross-linking, thereby reducing (perhaps by some minuscule amount) the longevity of the Ultimate Wax.
"fishing for swirls in a sea of black"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David
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Re: Sealant Question
Originally posted by wifpd4 View PostSelected portion of the above quote:
"...the reasoning for putting the carnauba down first is two fold..."
Michael did you mean the inverse of this? Carnauba down last?
Originally posted by wifpd4 View PostQuoting from numerous locations:
"A wax, (natural or synthetic), is a substance that when applied to a surface will not adhere properly on its own. Thus, it is necessary to add specialized miscible oils to allow the waxy material to spread and adhere evenly to the surface. These oils along with polymers are responsible for improving the functionality of the wax protection, appearance, adherence and the overall application."
I'm going to infer from our current discussions, that carnauba is immiscible and therefore using ColorX or #301, which contain some carnauba, when topped with Ultimate Wax would prevent or reduce the cross-linking, thereby reducing (perhaps by some minuscule amount) the longevity of the Ultimate Wax.
There is a certain manufacturer of synthetic sealants who has long stated that their product should only be applied to a pristine surface, devoid of any such carnaubas or polishes. They have been adamant about this from the start and they've gained a fairly rabid following over the years and were really one of the first to heavily tout their fully synthetic sealant (which they often refer to as a polish, by the way). That admonition of a "pure" surface seemed to really gain traction and the notion has spread like wildfire across detailing forums. Maybe it's time to call in the Mythbusters and let them have a whack at this..... but we just don't see an issue here.Michael Stoops
Senior Global Product & Training Specialist | Meguiar's Inc.
Remember, this hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need therapy.
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