Sealant Question

[wifpd4]

Please explain to me what are the ill effects of using a sealant, such as Ultimate Wax, after products such as ColorX or #301?

[Murr1525]

Re: Sealant Question

None?....

[Marc08EX]

Re: Sealant Question

Yeah there shouldn't be any problem at all. Can you please let us know your concerns about doing so?

[wifpd4]

Re: Sealant Question

Is the wax in those two products (ColorX, #301) synthetic, carnauba or hybrid? Does the presence of carnauba have a negative effect under Ultimate Wax?

[Murr1525]

Re: Sealant Question

None of Meguiars waxes are carnuba only.

[davidcam]

Re: Sealant Question

Please explain to me what are the ill effects of using a sealant, such as Ultimate Wax, after products such as ColorX or #301?

Is the wax in those two products (ColorX, #301) synthetic, carnauba or hybrid? Does the presence of carnauba have a negative effect under Ultimate Wax?

I think wifpd4 is concerned that the ColorX or the #301 are going to cover the paint and prevent the Ultimate Wax from bonding with the paint. Similar to using M21 before M26, the M26 is there for the carnuba look while the M21 is there for longevity.

[wifpd4]

Re: Sealant Question

I think wifpd4 is concerned that the ColorX or the #301 are going to cover the paint and prevent the Ultimate Wax from bonding with the paint. Similar to using M21 before M26, the M26 is there for the carnuba look while the M21 is there for longevity.

In what I've read, it is implied or inferred that a sealant should not be used after a product containing carnauba, as stated by davidcam's quote. But why and what happens if you do? Does the sealant fail to interlock with itself or the paint and blow off in the wind or slide off in the rain? Am I providing a bad end result, if I follow #301 with Ultimate Wax? (Assuming everything done up to that point, washing, drying and claying, was done properly.)

Please don't tell me not to do it, explain what happens if I do it and why not to do it. I want to understand the "mechanics" of why not.

[BillE]

Re: Sealant Question

Hmmm, good question David...

Bill

[greg0303]

Re: Sealant Question

ColorX, D301 Finishing Wax, M20 Polymer Sealant, M26 High Tech Yellow Wax and D151 PRC are hybrid waxes: blends of natural and synthetic ingredients.
Probably Gold Class Carnauba Plus, Deep Crystal Carnauba Wax and M16 Professional Paste Wax would offer most of natural look.

Carnauba based waxes tend to wash off easier than synthetic waxes. It's based on how they bond to paint surfaces: synthetics form a cross-link while naturals cover surfaces like a shell. Whenever wax layering is required sealants go first, before carnauba, as they provide longer and stronger protection.

Finishing waxes (without cleaners) should be put on paint surface which is prepared for it: above surface contaminants removed by claying, below surface defects removed by pre-wax cleaner/ polish otherwise the final affect won't be so visible.

Some detailers reported that they had problems with wax durability after put on top of D301 Finishing Wax. I remember that during Detail Fest 2011 Meguiar's DA MF System Class, Jason Rose compared D301 durability as similar to M26 High Tech Yellow Wax. So it means that D301 by itself can offer pretty good sacrificial barrier.
The easy way around this issue would be to use D300 and then follow with M205 and a finishing wax.

I observed durability of several waxes/ sealants on top of D151 PRC and ColorX and never caught any lack of long protection. I also toped D301 with other protecting products and didn't catch sagnificant protection shortage either. I guess it all depends on how vehicles are cared for after detailing and fresh coat of wax put on them plus enviromental conditions and load of daily usage.

[wifpd4]

Re: Sealant Question

It's being recommended not to put a longer lasting product on a lesser lasting product, yet it's a common practice to top M07 with wax/sealant and M07 has no longevity on it's own. This takes me back to the original question, is it the presence of the carnauba in ColorX or #301 that causes a sealant to not cross link effectively.

This question is being driven by two cars I just finished one rather delicate, cleaned with ColorX; the other an average clear coat, cleaned with #301 and both then waxed with Gold Class Plus. I would have preferred Ultimate Wax for longevity, but deferred to GC+ due to fears of using a sealant over carnauba.

[Marc08EX]

Re: Sealant Question

M07 is not a carnauba wax. It's a pure polish and shouldn't interfere with the cross linking process of the sealants.

[greg0303]

Re: Sealant Question

David,

This article by Mike Phillips goes deeply into your subject:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/...t-bonding.html

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Sealant Question

That article by our former forum Admin essentially states what we at Meguiar's have always said about this; all of our products are cross compatible with each other, so using any of them in any combination is not going to be an issue (unless, of course you wax first and then use a paint cleaner, but this is where common sense can really help a person out!). But as was also stated in that article, and something we've stated repeatedly here on MOL, if a manufacturer explicitly states that their synthetic should only be applied to paint that is stripped of all other polishes, waxes, etc then you should follow those directions. For the record, Meguiar's has never made this recommendation for any of our waxes or sealants.

Now, for those who routinely use both a full synthetic and a carnauba product, the reasoning for putting the carnauba down last is two fold - first, there's the seemingly logical reasoning of putting down the shortest lived product last so that it becomes the sacrificial barrier over the longest lived product (although logic alone doesn't always prove the point) and second, many who do this two part process started doing it because they want the longer lasting properties of the synthetic but feel that they get a better look from a carnauba, so the better looking product (in their eyes) goes on top. Yeah, OK, in that second scenario logic maybe does tell the whole story. Maybe.

[wifpd4]

Re: Sealant Question

That article by our former forum Admin essentially states what we at Meguiar's have always said about this; all of our products are cross compatible with each other, so using any of them in any combination is not going to be an issue (unless, of course you wax first and then use a paint cleaner, but this is where common sense can really help a person out!). But as was also stated in that article, and something we've stated repeatedly here on MOL, if a manufacturer explicitly states that their synthetic should only be applied to paint that is stripped of all other polishes, waxes, etc then you should follow those directions. For the record, Meguiar's has never made this recommendation for any of our waxes or sealants.

Now, for those who routinely use both a full synthetic and a carnauba product, the reasoning for putting the carnauba down first is two fold - first, there's the seemingly logical reasoning of putting down the shortest lived product last so that it becomes the sacrificial barrier over the longest lived product (although logic alone doesn't always prove the point) and second, many who do this two part process started doing it because they want the longer lasting properties of the synthetic but feel that they get a better look from a carnauba, so the better looking product (in their eyes) goes on top. Yeah, OK, in that second scenario logic maybe does tell the whole story. Maybe.

Selected portion of the above quote:
"...the reasoning for putting the carnauba down first is two fold..."
Michael did you mean the inverse of this? Carnauba down last?



Quoting from numerous locations:
"A wax, (natural or synthetic), is a substance that when applied to a surface will not adhere properly on its own. Thus, it is necessary to add specialized miscible oils to allow the waxy material to spread and adhere evenly to the surface. These oils along with polymers are responsible for improving the functionality of the wax protection, appearance, adherence and the overall application."

I'm going to infer from our current discussions, that carnauba is immiscible and therefore using ColorX or #301, which contain some carnauba, when topped with Ultimate Wax would prevent or reduce the cross-linking, thereby reducing (perhaps by some minuscule amount) the longevity of the Ultimate Wax.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Sealant Question

Selected portion of the above quote:
"...the reasoning for putting the carnauba down first is two fold..."
Michael did you mean the inverse of this? Carnauba down last?

Thanks for catching that. Yes, I meant it the other way around and will correct my original post in a moment. That's what I get for coming in to work with a seriously nasty head cold and feeling like crud.

Quoting from numerous locations:
"A wax, (natural or synthetic), is a substance that when applied to a surface will not adhere properly on its own. Thus, it is necessary to add specialized miscible oils to allow the waxy material to spread and adhere evenly to the surface. These oils along with polymers are responsible for improving the functionality of the wax protection, appearance, adherence and the overall application."

I'm going to infer from our current discussions, that carnauba is immiscible and therefore using ColorX or #301, which contain some carnauba, when topped with Ultimate Wax would prevent or reduce the cross-linking, thereby reducing (perhaps by some minuscule amount) the longevity of the Ultimate Wax.

Ultimate Wax is fairly unique stuff. From what R&D has shared with me, it's a 3 dimensional cross linking polymer so you shouldn't have any interference from the presence of a carnauba already on the paint. Now, does that mean that there is no way to make a case for reduced effectiveness of other synthetics if applied over a carnauba? No, but since we've never seen anyone actually quantify any lifespan differences for any product applied with or without carnauba beneath it, we're inclined to say that any differences are going to be minuscule at best. That said, however, if a manufacturer flat out tells you to make sure the surface is devoid of any product prior to application of their product, then you should do so. But with our products, and we suspect with most others, that isn't really the case.

There is a certain manufacturer of synthetic sealants who has long stated that their product should only be applied to a pristine surface, devoid of any such carnaubas or polishes. They have been adamant about this from the start and they've gained a fairly rabid following over the years and were really one of the first to heavily tout their fully synthetic sealant (which they often refer to as a polish, by the way). That admonition of a "pure" surface seemed to really gain traction and the notion has spread like wildfire across detailing forums. Maybe it's time to call in the Mythbusters and let them have a whack at this..... but we just don't see an issue here.