Does polishing oil still required in the modern clear coat system?

[scoutfai]

I have read a lot of Meguiar's brochure teaching car lover to clean the car (wash, clay, compound if swirl and scratch exist, etc), then apply a polish (mostly pure polish oil product) to enhance the gloss, then seal it with a wax or sealant.

However I have also read a lot in other detailing forum where people after doing cleaning (wash, clay, compound, abrasive polish, etc), then strip the paint chemically first using some sort of product usually called pre-wax cleanser or wax & sealant remover. The purpose is to make sure the surface of the car is only left with the paint itself, not other product on top of it, not even polishing oil. Then a wax or sealant is applied. Of course when discussing this kind of procedure the author always talk about a car with clear coat.

Is the Meguiar's way of doing thing (apply polishing oil, do not remove it, then seal with a wax) not the best practice anymore for a modern clear coat paint? I know applying polishing oil and seal it with wax on Single Stage Paint makes a lot of sense since single stage paint is more porous than clear coat. Hence, clear coat being less porous, is that means the procedure of "applying polishing oil, do not remove it, then seal with wax" should be changed to "strip the paint with cleanser, leave no polishing oil at all on the surface, then directly apply wax" ?

Which practice makes better result (gloss, durability), the apply polishing oil way, or the strip the paint chemically way?

Will be most appreciate if someone from Meguiar's can share their opinions.

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I have a bottle of Ultimate Polish. The last time I did was apply it by hand on my car with clear coat. Not intended to remove light swirl, just to give it a layer of polishing oil (because I haven got my hand on the pure polishing oil yet, so I utilize Ultimate Polish for this purpose first), then after wipe clean with a MF towel, I apply a layer of Gold Class paste wax by hand.
Maybe I will next month, stripping the paint down with IPA or Mineral Spirit first, then directly apply a layer of wax without anything in between. No polishing oil. And see what kind of gloss and durability it can give me. But so far the 1st method looking good to me. Not sure if the second method bring even better result.

[1994Gen1L]

Re: Does polishing oil still required in the modern clear coat system?

Ultimate Polish and then follow that with Ultimate Liquid Wax on Clear Coat paint.

[scoutfai]

Re: Does polishing oil still required in the modern clear coat system?

Ultimate Polish and then follow that with Ultimate Liquid Wax on Clear Coat paint.

Yes that is what I did too usually. But my question is there are others who strip the paint completely clean (i.e. nothing left on the paint at all), then only they apply wax onto the paint surface. According to people who practice this, it is claimed that this will give better bonding between the wax and paint, longer durability also. My question is is this a correct claim? Should car owner with clear coat paint never apply any kind of polishing oil or glaze product on their car before applying wax?

[wifpd4]

Re: Does polishing oil still required in the modern clear coat system?

Will be most appreciate if someone from Meguiar's can share their opinions.

I'm sure Mr. Stoops will stop by and offer that opinion and it's probably a bit more than an opinion. More like fact

My opinion is stay away from mineral spirits. I just don't feel comfortable using that on an automotive finish, although it may be perfectly safe. You're right some detailing product manufacturers do recommend a clear surface before applying their final step product and they might recommend an IPA or CarPro Eraser type of product be used before their last step. Meguiar's system works so well together, that in most, if not all cases, there is no need to remove the polish before waxing to achieve a satisfactory bond. There are several multi-step sequences that result in amazing end results where polish is a mid step in the process. Mixing and matching the steps is a favorite practice with many folks. One "matched" sequence might be Ultimate Compound, Ultimate Polish, Ultimate Wax. What to perhaps be careful of is doing a step that may diminished by the next step and be a bit of a waste of your time. Using a cleaner wax might diminish a previous step.

[kiwiatlarge]

Re: Does polishing oil still required in the modern clear coat system?

From everything I've read, Ultimate Polish or Swirl-X should sufficiently prep your car for waxing... If it makes you feel better, step up to Ultimate Compound, a light application (especially by hand) isn't going to do any major surgery to your paint, but should remove products on your car, and light water spots etc in the process.. Keep to systems of products and you shouldn't go wrong (by all means mix n match the LSP if you wish).. And most of all, don't over complicate things..

[scoutfai]

Re: Does polishing oil still required in the modern clear coat system?

From everything I've read, Ultimate Polish or Swirl-X should sufficiently prep your car for waxing... If it makes you feel better, step up to Ultimate Compound, a light application (especially by hand) isn't going to do any major surgery to your paint, but should remove products on your car, and light water spots etc in the process.. Keep to systems of products and you shouldn't go wrong (by all means mix n match the LSP if you wish).. And most of all, don't over complicate things..

Well said kiwiatlarge!
Washing, claying, then Ultimate Polish by hand (I wish to find pure glaze but I just couldn't get one here so I utilize the rich oil content of Ultimate Polish, I am aware it has little abrasive), then Gold Class wax by hand. Wipe off with hand also. That's what I usually do.

Nevertheless couldn't fight my own curiosity to know how well other people's practice can be compare to mine. I guess I am just keen to know more variety of method. At the same time to check whether my knowledge of car care procedure has been outdated by the constantly developing painting technology.


BTW Mr. Stoops I am still waiting for your big comment!

[scoutfai]

Re: Does polishing oil still required in the modern clear coat system?

I'm sure Mr. Stoops will stop by and offer that opinion and it's probably a bit more than an opinion. More like fact

My opinion is stay away from mineral spirits. ... ...

I have came across thread from reputable person in the detailing industry where they recommended mineral spirits instead of IPA solution for stripping paint purpose.
I personally has never tried wipe my car with mineral spirit, so I never knew how it is going to feel like, both the process and result. But as of this time I share the same feeling like you. My dad use mineral spirit to wash his hand off the wall paint whenever he did some DIY wood work project. It feels strange to use such liquid to wipe on car paint. But I could be wrong that the clear coat is resistant to mineral spirit.

I will look forward to Mr. Stoops reply.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Does polishing oil still required in the modern clear coat system?

There is no doubt that even a modern, catalyzed clear coat paint finish is porous to some degree. We see situations all the time where paint will actually swell following use of some solvent based compounds due to the solvents actually getting into the surface of the paint and causing that swelling. It seems counter-intuitive that compounding a paint with an abrasive product could result in paint thickness readings that are actually higher than before you started, but we've seen it. Of course, that increase in the paint thickness is a very short term situation as once the solvents blow out, which they will, the paint will shrink back and the readings will be more "normal" or what you expected to see. We've seen this to the point that sanding marks appear to disappear following compounding but then then come back an hour or so later. This is partly why detailers will often do an IPA wipe down immediately following their compound step to ensure that they aren't leaving behind any oils or anything else that could be filling defects and therefore masking the true finish. Some products on the market have very durable fillers (for lack of a better word) in them that can't easily be removed even with IPA. Other products will, by nature of their composition, do more filling of defects than other products can or will. Our own M07 Show Car Glaze can fill like crazy if you apply it to a surface loaded with rotary buffer swirls, for example. That is not what it was developed for, but it will behave that way under those circumstances. But on perfectly prepped paint where there is nothing to fill, M07 will just add gloss and depth. But even on "perfectly prepared" paint, on a microscopic level there is still some texture on the surface, some "nooks and crannies" if you will, that M07 will fill in while laying on top of the high spots.

But none of that has anything to do with whether or not you should remove these oils before applying a wax, sealant, coating, etc. So do you need to remove those oils or not? If so, what's the best way?

When applying virtually any carnuaba wax on the market, there should be no need to do an IPA wipedown just to remove any polishing oils prior to applying the wax. To check for defect removal, maybe, but solely for the proper application of the carnauba wax? No. Synthetic sealants may be a different story though. Some manufacturers state that their product must be applied to totally clean paint; paint that is devoid of any oils, waxes, or anything else. If that is explicitly stated in a manufacturers product directions, then you should follow those directions. When using Meguiar's waxes and sealants, however, there is no such need to strip before applying that LSP. In discussions with our VP of R&D (ie, our head chemist) about this subject, his point of view is that by having something like M07 laid down first that will effectively level the surface by filling in those low spots, a cross linking polymer has a better platform upon to which to bond and cure. But again, that's our sealant (NXT Tech Wax 2.0, M21, Ultimate Wax) being applied over our pure polish. That said, we've seen countless situations where someone used something like M07, M205 or a competitors finishing polish, did NOT do an IPA wipedown and applied a competitors synthetic sealant and.......... what are you expecting here? To see the sealant flake off? To see the sealant lift off in a sheet? To see the sealant bead up and spread out? None of that happens. As near as anyone can see or tell, the sealant still applied as expected. There are even a couple of synthetic sealants on the market that used to claim to need totally clean paint to work properly, but that same company later introduces a polish or cleaner that will indeed leave something behind. Yet the sealant works perfectly fine on top of that "something". OK, fine.


Now, if you're talking about the new breed of semi permanent paint coatings on the market, then you really should do the proper panel wipe down before applying it. In this case we have heard of people failing to properly wipe down the panel and the coating actually did bead up, like water on a fresh coat of wax, and it simply would not work. Now, that may have been an isolated case with one specific finishing polish (huge discussions about so called "durable fillers" in this product that did require mineral spirits to remove) and the particular coating being used. Who knows, another coating may not have been so sensitive to this particular polish. Or the coating that was used may not have been so negatively effected by another polish. There are a ton of possible variables here.

As for using mineral spirits as a panel wipe, while sensible use of mineral spirits won't hurt the clear coat, it is pretty aggressive and if you don't need to use it, don't. A 20% dilution (maximum) of IPA should be more than sufficient for removing polishing oils from any water based or solvent based compound used for defect removal. If you prefer to use something like CarPro Eraser (a very good product indeed, but far more costly than mixing your own IPA solution) then so be it.

So when should you use IPA or similar as a panel wipe:

• At the end of it all, it's not a bad idea to use an IPA wipedown to judge defect removal when doing really critical work. If you are prepping a high end car for a major event, especially something like a non metallic black finish with a fairly high level of touch sensitivity, then you really should be doing this. It's extremely common for a DA buffer to leave a very fine DA haze on a super high end, sanded flat, non metallic black paint. Just the kind of paint you really want to bring to the highest level possible. You sure don't want to apply anything that could be masking that DA haze, only to have it blow out later on and leave the paint looking less black that you thought it did. We saw this on a car that we were prepping for SEMA a few years ago. It has been painted, sanded and buffed out in Sweden and then shipped to the US. By the time it got here, some 4 weeks after being buffed in Sweden, the owner was pointing out to us what he thought was damage from transit. He thought someone had been wiping the car down and scratched it, but in reality it was sanding marks. He insisted the car had been buffed out before arriving here and that the sanding marks were gone. There was absolutely no question that these were, indeed, sanding marks. They had been concealed, either by the paint swelling from the compound, the compound leaving something behind that temporarily filled them in, or a combination (most likely) of the two. So using IPA would have been a smart move in Sweden when polishing this car, no doubt about it.
• If you're doing a one step correction then you most likely wouldn't bother with an IPA wipedown to judge progress. After all, the whole point of a one step is to make the paint look better than it did before, not to make it as near perfect as possible. Expectations are lower from the get go so there's not much point in it. Unless...... (c'mon, you knew it was coming!) you find that even your one step is creating a lot of haze on a very touch sensitive paint. At that point you may need to change product, process or both to over come that. Even so, you still aren't chasing perfection so you're not going to stress over it as much.
• You've polished the paint, you know you aren't getting any haze, and you plan on applying a carnauba wax. Why strip the paint with IPA? There is the very real potential to lose some gloss, but there's no real need to strip in order to get proper application of the wax. In this case there is zero upside to stripping, but a potential downside.
• You've polished the paint, you know you aren't getting any haze, and you plan on applying a synthetic sealant. If the sealant manufacturer insists that the paint be devoid of anything before applying the sealant, then strip it. If not, then you're in the same situation as the carnauba wax above. No need to strip the paint.
• The final process is the application of a semi-permanent paint coating. Most definitely you're going to strip the paint fully. The application process can be quite finicky with these products, and they aren't as forgiving in application as waxes and sealants. And they are far, far more expensive. Strip the paint prior to application.

[scoutfai]

Re: Does polishing oil still required in the modern clear coat system?

There is no doubt that even a modern, catalyzed clear coat paint finish is porous to some degree. We see situations all the time where paint will actually swell following use of some solvent based compounds due to the solvents actually getting into... ...

Thanks a lot Mr. Stoops!
Great to know that I am doing the thing rightly! Will continue my practice in the way as educated by Meguiar's brochure.

[Detailing by M]

Re: Does polishing oil still required in the modern clear coat system?

.... "read the bottle, put it on the car" - the paint whisper

polish, wax, collect money.

K.I.S.S.