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Re: What would you do?
Let's split this into two categories: Pure Polishes and Cleaner Polishes.
A Pure Polish, like M07 or Deep Crystal Polish, is a very short lived product on the paint surface. They are used for one thing, and one thing only - to add gloss to the paint. Ideally they are used on paint that has been fully and properly prepared with clay and compound to remove any and all defects from the paint surface. We always consider this to be an optional step, for a variety of reasons:
A Cleaner Polish, like M205 or even Ultimate Polish, not only adds the polishing oils to the paint but the action of the ultra fine abrasives will further refine the finish following a compounding step. This is even more true if that compounding step creates a bit of DA haze due to the sensitivity of the paint. We just did this exact thing yesterday working on a black Mustang GT in our training garage - the compound step removed all the swirls very quickly but hazed the paint quite noticeably, whether we used a foam or microfiber disc. But a quick follow up with M205 on yellow foam took care of all the haze and the paint looked great. This is still considered an optional step, however, because in some cases the compounding step leaves no haze at all and the paint looks easily good enough to go straight to wax.
So, how does a Cleaner Wax fit into all this, and what impact does it have on that previous polish step? Well, it sort of depends on which polish you used and what your goal with that polish was. It also kind of depends on which cleaner wax you use and how you use it.
If you applied a pure polish simply to enhance the gloss of otherwise perfectly prepped paint, your best option with a wax or sealant would be to go with a non-cleaner variety so as to maintain as much integrity of that pure polish as possible. Using a cleaner wax would remove some of that polish through the cleaning action of the wax, whether that be an abrasive or chemical cleaning. How aggressively you apply that cleaner wax will play a role, too. Looking at a couple of extremes we can see potentially dramatic differences in outcome:
If you used a cleaner polish, like M205, the primary benefit you're getting is a refinement of the paint surface. This adds clarity to reflections and even more "pop" to the metallic paints, especially when machine applied. This is a major benefit on clear coat finishes due to the chemistry of clear coat compared to that of single stage lacquer, and how a the SMAT abrasives in M205 work on that clear coat to achieve this result. Applying a cleaner wax on top of should not remove the enhanced clarity provided by M205, unless you do something really wrong in your application of the cleaner wax. But if you're going to put in the time and effort of refining the finish with a really nice cleaner polish like M205, odds are you're going to select a more premium wax like Gold Class or Ultimate instead of a cleaner wax anyway.
If we look specifically at the DAMF System, we see a combination of the above going on. You have to fully understand the DAMF System in order to appreciate what's really happening here. From the outset with that system we engineered it to be two steps - cut and finish. We knew full well that the aggressiveness of the cutting step could and would create some level of hazing on some paints, and so D301 Finishing Wax was designed as a cleaner wax in order to refine the surface and remove that haze. But D301 doesn't do that refining all by itself; it makes use of the abrasive nature of the microfiber disc itself to aid in this surface refining. We also knew that on some paints D301/DMF5 would not be sufficient to remove heavy haze so, from Day 1 with DAMF, we recommended following up D300/DMC with something like M205 on foam. But we eventually got enough feedback from people wanting to stay within the DAMF System to remove even heavy haze, and so we came up with D302 Polish. But D302 is a very unique product. All by itself it's a pure polish - there are no functional abrasives in it, just as there are no functional abrasives in M07. Instead, D302 acts as a buffering solution that allows the abrasive nature of the microfiber filaments of the DMF finishing pad to do all the refining work. Think of it as taking M205 and separating into it's dry abrasive component and it's wet component (the water, solvents, polishing oils, etc). The dry abrasive component of M205 would be the analog of the microfiber filaments on the DMF disc, and the wet component the analog to D302. Put them together and you've got a cleaner polish, not just a pure polish. Remember, a pure polish would only fill and hide minor defects, while a cleaner polish would remove those defects. When you then follow a D302 application with D301/DMF you will indeed remove some (if not all, depending on how aggressively you apply D301) of the D302 polishing oils from the paint surface but you will not alter the haze removal that D302 accomplished. And that is critically important. We know this to be fact because we've played around the potential power of D301 Finishing Wax on the DMF5 microfiber finishing disc; if pushed hard we've been able to remove 2500 grit sanding marks with it. It wasn't terribly efficient doing that and we'd never recommend it as a sanding mark removal process, but we were able to do it. And if we can take out sanding marks with D301/DMF, we'll take off polishing oils pretty easily. But, again, the goal of D302 is not the same as that of M07 but rather more the goal of M205. And that won't go away with a simple application of a cleaner wax.
So, can a cleaner wax remove polishing oils? It sure can. Will it always remove all of those oils? Nope. Way too many variables to make such a definitive statement. In fact, Top Gear, you stated above regarding cleaner waxes: "All they do is provide a very minor abrasion, and only if they are worked with the pad." That statement is spot on and totally correct. And it reinforces everything we've just stated above.
Originally posted by Top Gear
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A Pure Polish, like M07 or Deep Crystal Polish, is a very short lived product on the paint surface. They are used for one thing, and one thing only - to add gloss to the paint. Ideally they are used on paint that has been fully and properly prepared with clay and compound to remove any and all defects from the paint surface. We always consider this to be an optional step, for a variety of reasons:
- Modern clear coats don't see as much benefit from a pure polish as older single stage lacquers do (remember, M07 Show Car Glaze actually dates back to the 1930s and things have changed a lot since then!)
- Darker paints show more benefit from a pure polish than lighter colors do.
- We now have polish in some of our waxes (Gold Class, NXT, Ultimate) which can make a dedicated polish step a bit redundant.
- The gains from using a pure polish tend to be quite short lived, so most people won't spend the extra time needed to apply it on a daily driver
A Cleaner Polish, like M205 or even Ultimate Polish, not only adds the polishing oils to the paint but the action of the ultra fine abrasives will further refine the finish following a compounding step. This is even more true if that compounding step creates a bit of DA haze due to the sensitivity of the paint. We just did this exact thing yesterday working on a black Mustang GT in our training garage - the compound step removed all the swirls very quickly but hazed the paint quite noticeably, whether we used a foam or microfiber disc. But a quick follow up with M205 on yellow foam took care of all the haze and the paint looked great. This is still considered an optional step, however, because in some cases the compounding step leaves no haze at all and the paint looks easily good enough to go straight to wax.
So, how does a Cleaner Wax fit into all this, and what impact does it have on that previous polish step? Well, it sort of depends on which polish you used and what your goal with that polish was. It also kind of depends on which cleaner wax you use and how you use it.
If you applied a pure polish simply to enhance the gloss of otherwise perfectly prepped paint, your best option with a wax or sealant would be to go with a non-cleaner variety so as to maintain as much integrity of that pure polish as possible. Using a cleaner wax would remove some of that polish through the cleaning action of the wax, whether that be an abrasive or chemical cleaning. How aggressively you apply that cleaner wax will play a role, too. Looking at a couple of extremes we can see potentially dramatic differences in outcome:
- Apply M07 and follow it up with a gentle hand application of A12 Cleaner Wax, and you'll likely leave the majority of the M07 benefits in place.
- Apply M07 and follow it up with a machine application of White Wax, using a polishing pad, moderate tool speed and moderate pressure, and you'll remove that M07 in a heartbeat. Heck, you'll even take swirls away with it!!
If you used a cleaner polish, like M205, the primary benefit you're getting is a refinement of the paint surface. This adds clarity to reflections and even more "pop" to the metallic paints, especially when machine applied. This is a major benefit on clear coat finishes due to the chemistry of clear coat compared to that of single stage lacquer, and how a the SMAT abrasives in M205 work on that clear coat to achieve this result. Applying a cleaner wax on top of should not remove the enhanced clarity provided by M205, unless you do something really wrong in your application of the cleaner wax. But if you're going to put in the time and effort of refining the finish with a really nice cleaner polish like M205, odds are you're going to select a more premium wax like Gold Class or Ultimate instead of a cleaner wax anyway.
If we look specifically at the DAMF System, we see a combination of the above going on. You have to fully understand the DAMF System in order to appreciate what's really happening here. From the outset with that system we engineered it to be two steps - cut and finish. We knew full well that the aggressiveness of the cutting step could and would create some level of hazing on some paints, and so D301 Finishing Wax was designed as a cleaner wax in order to refine the surface and remove that haze. But D301 doesn't do that refining all by itself; it makes use of the abrasive nature of the microfiber disc itself to aid in this surface refining. We also knew that on some paints D301/DMF5 would not be sufficient to remove heavy haze so, from Day 1 with DAMF, we recommended following up D300/DMC with something like M205 on foam. But we eventually got enough feedback from people wanting to stay within the DAMF System to remove even heavy haze, and so we came up with D302 Polish. But D302 is a very unique product. All by itself it's a pure polish - there are no functional abrasives in it, just as there are no functional abrasives in M07. Instead, D302 acts as a buffering solution that allows the abrasive nature of the microfiber filaments of the DMF finishing pad to do all the refining work. Think of it as taking M205 and separating into it's dry abrasive component and it's wet component (the water, solvents, polishing oils, etc). The dry abrasive component of M205 would be the analog of the microfiber filaments on the DMF disc, and the wet component the analog to D302. Put them together and you've got a cleaner polish, not just a pure polish. Remember, a pure polish would only fill and hide minor defects, while a cleaner polish would remove those defects. When you then follow a D302 application with D301/DMF you will indeed remove some (if not all, depending on how aggressively you apply D301) of the D302 polishing oils from the paint surface but you will not alter the haze removal that D302 accomplished. And that is critically important. We know this to be fact because we've played around the potential power of D301 Finishing Wax on the DMF5 microfiber finishing disc; if pushed hard we've been able to remove 2500 grit sanding marks with it. It wasn't terribly efficient doing that and we'd never recommend it as a sanding mark removal process, but we were able to do it. And if we can take out sanding marks with D301/DMF, we'll take off polishing oils pretty easily. But, again, the goal of D302 is not the same as that of M07 but rather more the goal of M205. And that won't go away with a simple application of a cleaner wax.
So, can a cleaner wax remove polishing oils? It sure can. Will it always remove all of those oils? Nope. Way too many variables to make such a definitive statement. In fact, Top Gear, you stated above regarding cleaner waxes: "All they do is provide a very minor abrasion, and only if they are worked with the pad." That statement is spot on and totally correct. And it reinforces everything we've just stated above.
thanks for this, just the info i've been searching for
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