HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat
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Thread: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

          
  1. #1
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    HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

    Hi, my 2004 mystic blue BMW has somewhat a rough clearcoat but it is still clear and adhered to the paint. Outside 24/7 it has toweling swirl marks, some scratches here and there, a little etching and some dryness. Wanting to remove the swirls, spidering and etching I used UC with the Drill DA and the Red pad and it nearly destroyed the clear coat...really clouded and hazed. Tried it twice...slow speed, fast speed, 1) the temp was over 90 degrees in the shade red pad and 2) in the 40s (nice and cool) with shade with the red pad. Both times it immediately started to cloud the clear and I stopped. Was able to rub some of it out but much of the cloud is still there. Used Black Wax with a microfiber finishing pad on the Drill DA. The clearcoat seems to love Black Wax and the microfiber pad.... starts to come back to life looking very liquid. The cloud/haze on the hood has diminished a little but still am trying to figure out how to get it out. Did NOT use UC on the rest of the car. Only Blackwax and rest of car is OK, the clear coat is still intact and crystal clear. Only the hood is messed up after UC.

    My BMW clearcoat loves Blackwax (Have used Ultimate Paste Was it it seems to love that also) with the microfiber pad.
    1. What do I use to get out the cloud and haze?
    2. What do I use as a polish to remove the swirls if UC and the red pad destroys it in seconds? Have not tried UC by hand.

    I have Ultimate Polish but afraid to use it because the UC destroys my clearcoat.

  2. #2
    Sr. Global Product & Training Spec Michael Stoops's Avatar
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    Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

    First off, welcome to MOL!

    What you're seeing is actually fairly typical "DA haze", which many cars are prone to. Some BMWs, especially the Jet Black, are notorious for being incredibly difficult to eliminate haze from. But we also see it with many other non metallic black paints - Porsches can be a nightmare, some (but most definitely NOT all) Mercedes Benz models, as well as many Japanese brands (usually those built in Japan, not here in the US) and some Chrysler vehicles. And don't get me started on brand spanking new Teslas like we have here in California. Yep, the paint responds differently here in Cali on brand new Teslas because the paint continues to cure while they're being transported across country, so their actually easier to work on in, say, Florida. Note the word "easier" and not necessarily "easy". Any Florida member reading this who've work on a Tesla knows what I mean. Awesome cars, no doubt, and the haze is no indication whatsoever as to quality of paint, so let's be really clear on that. In some cases the haze is fairly easy to deal with, in others it's a massive challenge. And not just for weekend warriors like yourself. We used to conduct an extremely high level training program that drew some of the best pro detailers from all over the world, and the most commonly requested topic was dealing with these nasty, haze prone paints. With most of these, it doesn't matter one little bit what tool you use, what compound you use, or even what pad you use. Certainly some combinations will create more or less haze, depending on the vehicle, but you're experiencing something that is becoming more and more common in the auto industry - really touch sensitive paint.

    Now, with that bit of background out of the way - and to let you know that you're definitely not alone! - let's look at what we can do to eliminate the haze for you. The first logical step is to follow the Ultimate Compound/Red pad with Ultimate Polish on a yellow pad, and back off on the pressure. The problem here is, sometimes this works, sometimes it only works part way (ie, it's better, but still not quite what you're looking for). In that case, sometimes you need to either use the black finishing pad, or do one pass with UP on the yellow, and another with the black. It should be noted here that this issue is so pervasive that just a few months ago we introduced a new Mirror Glaze Professional Polish, M210, to address this exact issue. We're finding that in almost all cases, a bit of M210 on a yellow foam pad and a fairly short buffing cycle does the trick. Like - BAM!!! - the haze is gone. As an example: a few months ago I detailed a Ferrari 360 Spider that I've been taking care of for several years. Non metallic red (Rosso Corsa, for the tifosi out there) and it usually hazes pretty noticeably even with a finishing polish. Not horrible, but not where I want it, so I've always had to sort of play with things to get it to work. M210 wasn't quite released yet but since I work here, well you get the picture. A bit of M210 on yellow foam on my DA, and BAM!!!, zero haze.

    So, you can either experiment with a few different processes and maybe get a bit frustrated before figuring it all out (and trust us, this can be insanely frustrating in the worst case scenarios, even for a seasoned pro) or just pick up some M210 and be done with it.
    Michael Stoops
    Senior Global Product & Training Specialist | Meguiar's Inc.

    Remember, this hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need therapy.

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    Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Stoops View Post
    First off, welcome to MOL!

    What you're seeing is actually fairly typical "DA haze", which many cars are prone to. Some BMWs, especially the Jet Black, are notorious for being incredibly difficult to eliminate haze from. But we also see it with many other non metallic black paints - Porsches can be a nightmare, some (but most definitely NOT all) Mercedes Benz models, as well as many Japanese brands (usually those built in Japan, not here in the US) and some Chrysler vehicles. And don't get me started on brand spanking new Teslas like we have here in California. Yep, the paint responds differently here in Cali on brand new Teslas because the paint continues to cure while they're being transported across country, so their actually easier to work on in, say, Florida. Note the word "easier" and not necessarily "easy". Any Florida member reading this who've work on a Tesla knows what I mean. Awesome cars, no doubt, and the haze is no indication whatsoever as to quality of paint, so let's be really clear on that. In some cases the haze is fairly easy to deal with, in others it's a massive challenge. And not just for weekend warriors like yourself. We used to conduct an extremely high level training program that drew some of the best pro detailers from all over the world, and the most commonly requested topic was dealing with these nasty, haze prone paints. With most of these, it doesn't matter one little bit what tool you use, what compound you use, or even what pad you use. Certainly some combinations will create more or less haze, depending on the vehicle, but you're experiencing something that is becoming more and more common in the auto industry - really touch sensitive paint.

    Now, with that bit of background out of the way - and to let you know that you're definitely not alone! - let's look at what we can do to eliminate the haze for you. The first logical step is to follow the Ultimate Compound/Red pad with Ultimate Polish on a yellow pad, and back off on the pressure. The problem here is, sometimes this works, sometimes it only works part way (ie, it's better, but still not quite what you're looking for). In that case, sometimes you need to either use the black finishing pad, or do one pass with UP on the yellow, and another with the black. It should be noted here that this issue is so pervasive that just a few months ago we introduced a new Mirror Glaze Professional Polish, M210, to address this exact issue. We're finding that in almost all cases, a bit of M210 on a yellow foam pad and a fairly short buffing cycle does the trick. Like - BAM!!! - the haze is gone. As an example: a few months ago I detailed a Ferrari 360 Spider that I've been taking care of for several years. Non metallic red (Rosso Corsa, for the tifosi out there) and it usually hazes pretty noticeably even with a finishing polish. Not horrible, but not where I want it, so I've always had to sort of play with things to get it to work. M210 wasn't quite released yet but since I work here, well you get the picture. A bit of M210 on yellow foam on my DA, and BAM!!!, zero haze.

    So, you can either experiment with a few different processes and maybe get a bit frustrated before figuring it all out (and trust us, this can be insanely frustrating in the worst case scenarios, even for a seasoned pro) or just pick up some M210 and be done with it.
    Hi Mike, thanks for the quick response. 1) Why does the BMW seem to like "Black Wax"? Is this being discontinued? Should I stock up on this...it looks sooooo liquid. Applied with the micro-fiber on the DA it just shines and glows. A little streaky but I'm sure that will work out when the temp gets over 40.
    2) The cloud from the UC seems to be embedded into the clear. Is this something like the clear sucking up the SMATs or the polymer chains moving around or what?
    Will get the M210 and also do a before and after pic.
    Thanks

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    Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

    Oh and when using the UC and the Red pad it will spin for a little like everything is cool then GRAB suddenly! That's when it makes the cloud.

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    Sr. Global Product & Training Spec Michael Stoops's Avatar
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    Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

    Quote Originally Posted by Atalanta View Post
    Hi Mike, thanks for the quick response. 1) Why does the BMW seem to like "Black Wax"? Is this being discontinued? Should I stock up on this...it looks sooooo liquid. Applied with the micro-fiber on the DA it just shines and glows. A little streaky but I'm sure that will work out when the temp gets over 40.
    Happy to assist! Most dark colored cars like Black Wax because that product has a lot of polishing oils in that help to darken and richen the color. That's something that darker colors really like because they can show off the effects of the polish. The protection is primarily carnauba, though there are some light polymers in it, and carnauba tends to look great on dark colors even though it's not as durable as synthetic polymers. It's most likely going to be phased out in the US as sales aren't all that strong, even though it's a great product. The streakiness is likely down to a mix of the low temps you applied at, how thickly you applied it, and how soon you wiped off the residue. As temps warm up, just as you suspect, things should get better in that regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atalanta View Post
    2) The cloud from the UC seems to be embedded into the clear. Is this something like the clear sucking up the SMATs or the polymer chains moving around or what?
    Will get the M210 and also do a before and after pic.
    Thanks
    What's actually happening is you're getting very tiny little tick marks in the paint. This is what we call "DA haze" because it only happens with DA polishers and not rotary polishers. That's due to the movement of the pad on the paint, and the sensitivity of the paint itself. Essentially what's happening is the process creates countless little, super tiny, hook shaped scratches in the paint. You know how a typical swirl mark looks sort of grey or white in color when direct light hits it, but the surrounding paint is still the original dark color? Well, imagine if those swirls were a fraction of a millimeter in length, but there was a zillion or so (that's a real number, right?) packed together super close to each other. That white or grey appearance you get from a swirl is now coming from tiny little marks packed so close together that the paint now takes on a greyish appearance. This is super noticeable with non metallic black paint - the swirls are gone, but the paint now looks completely grey instead of black. And this is where the struggle is - trying to touch the paint so lightly that you remove these tick marks instead of just creating a whole new batch of them. Sometimes the best approach is to buff for a super short amount of time - that way you fix the issue without giving things time to then recreate the problem. And oddly enough, sometimes using a cutting pad works better than finishing pad. That's because cutting pads are usually more firm or stiff, so they don't bounce around so much on the paint. Remember, this kind of paint just does not like to be touched, so getting in and out quickly for finishing is often the best approach. But paint systems vary so widely there's no real text book scenario to dealing with the really finicky ones. It's trial and error. And sometimes frustration and anger. But M210 should fix that.


    Oh, wait a doggone second here........ another new product you should absolutely LOVE is our brand new 3-In-1 Wax. It's sort of like Black Wax in that it contains a decent amount of polishing oils, but it's got great cutting ability if you push it hard, and it offers polymer protection instead of carnauba. It does an amazing job of making black paint "blacker". You might want to pick up some of that at your local auto parts store and give it a spin. Heck, even use that red pad with it - you might be stunned at the amount of defect removal you can get with it. It's almost a compound, polish and synthetic polymer in one. Killer stuff (and I swear I'm not biased - it seriously is THAT good).
    Michael Stoops
    Senior Global Product & Training Specialist | Meguiar's Inc.

    Remember, this hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need therapy.

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    Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

    Hey Mike, Was just looking at that gigantic M210 bottle and was wondering what I was going to do with that. Would 3n1 also remove the haze?
    Another thing...the Black Wax is quite beautiful. Applied it hours before it snowed... it didn't survive the two days of snow we had. Does it need to cure for several hours or something. I reapplied it today after trying to UC the hood. It was sooo liquid that it gave me some hope of fixing the hood.

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    Sr. Global Product & Training Spec Michael Stoops's Avatar
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    Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

    M210 is also available by the quart - I'm assuming the gigantic bottle you were looking at is the gallon size??? Give 3-In-1 a go first - I think it will surprise you.
    Michael Stoops
    Senior Global Product & Training Specialist | Meguiar's Inc.

    Remember, this hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need therapy.

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    Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

    Mike, thanks for explaining the DA Grab. I can see what you are talking about with the DA and that's exactly what it feels like when it GRABs! Should I try a rotary?

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    Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

    The gigantic bottle was the quart. :\

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    Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

    Thanks for your help! I have a bottle of Ultimate Polish sitting. Maybe try that by hand to avoid the DA Haze? or should I use a Rotary? Where does Ultimate Polish sit as far as aggressiveness and polishing oils compared to M210 and 3n1?

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