HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

[Atalanta]

Hi, my 2004 mystic blue BMW has somewhat a rough clearcoat but it is still clear and adhered to the paint. Outside 24/7 it has toweling swirl marks, some scratches here and there, a little etching and some dryness. Wanting to remove the swirls, spidering and etching I used UC with the Drill DA and the Red pad and it nearly destroyed the clear coat...really clouded and hazed. Tried it twice...slow speed, fast speed, 1) the temp was over 90 degrees in the shade red pad and 2) in the 40s (nice and cool) with shade with the red pad. Both times it immediately started to cloud the clear and I stopped. Was able to rub some of it out but much of the cloud is still there. Used Black Wax with a microfiber finishing pad on the Drill DA. The clearcoat seems to love Black Wax and the microfiber pad.... starts to come back to life looking very liquid. The cloud/haze on the hood has diminished a little but still am trying to figure out how to get it out. Did NOT use UC on the rest of the car. Only Blackwax and rest of car is OK, the clear coat is still intact and crystal clear. Only the hood is messed up after UC.

My BMW clearcoat loves Blackwax (Have used Ultimate Paste Was it it seems to love that also) with the microfiber pad.
1. What do I use to get out the cloud and haze?
2. What do I use as a polish to remove the swirls if UC and the red pad destroys it in seconds? Have not tried UC by hand.

I have Ultimate Polish but afraid to use it because the UC destroys my clearcoat.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

First off, welcome to MOL!

What you're seeing is actually fairly typical "DA haze", which many cars are prone to. Some BMWs, especially the Jet Black, are notorious for being incredibly difficult to eliminate haze from. But we also see it with many other non metallic black paints - Porsches can be a nightmare, some (but most definitely NOT all) Mercedes Benz models, as well as many Japanese brands (usually those built in Japan, not here in the US) and some Chrysler vehicles. And don't get me started on brand spanking new Teslas like we have here in California. Yep, the paint responds differently here in Cali on brand new Teslas because the paint continues to cure while they're being transported across country, so their actually easier to work on in, say, Florida. Note the word "easier" and not necessarily "easy". Any Florida member reading this who've work on a Tesla knows what I mean. Awesome cars, no doubt, and the haze is no indication whatsoever as to quality of paint, so let's be really clear on that. In some cases the haze is fairly easy to deal with, in others it's a massive challenge. And not just for weekend warriors like yourself. We used to conduct an extremely high level training program that drew some of the best pro detailers from all over the world, and the most commonly requested topic was dealing with these nasty, haze prone paints. With most of these, it doesn't matter one little bit what tool you use, what compound you use, or even what pad you use. Certainly some combinations will create more or less haze, depending on the vehicle, but you're experiencing something that is becoming more and more common in the auto industry - really touch sensitive paint.

Now, with that bit of background out of the way - and to let you know that you're definitely not alone! - let's look at what we can do to eliminate the haze for you. The first logical step is to follow the Ultimate Compound/Red pad with Ultimate Polish on a yellow pad, and back off on the pressure. The problem here is, sometimes this works, sometimes it only works part way (ie, it's better, but still not quite what you're looking for). In that case, sometimes you need to either use the black finishing pad, or do one pass with UP on the yellow, and another with the black. It should be noted here that this issue is so pervasive that just a few months ago we introduced a new Mirror Glaze Professional Polish, M210, to address this exact issue. We're finding that in almost all cases, a bit of M210 on a yellow foam pad and a fairly short buffing cycle does the trick. Like - BAM!!! - the haze is gone. As an example: a few months ago I detailed a Ferrari 360 Spider that I've been taking care of for several years. Non metallic red (Rosso Corsa, for the tifosi out there) and it usually hazes pretty noticeably even with a finishing polish. Not horrible, but not where I want it, so I've always had to sort of play with things to get it to work. M210 wasn't quite released yet but since I work here, well you get the picture. A bit of M210 on yellow foam on my DA, and BAM!!!, zero haze.

So, you can either experiment with a few different processes and maybe get a bit frustrated before figuring it all out (and trust us, this can be insanely frustrating in the worst case scenarios, even for a seasoned pro) or just pick up some M210 and be done with it.

[Atalanta]

Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

First off, welcome to MOL!

What you're seeing is actually fairly typical "DA haze", which many cars are prone to. Some BMWs, especially the Jet Black, are notorious for being incredibly difficult to eliminate haze from. But we also see it with many other non metallic black paints - Porsches can be a nightmare, some (but most definitely NOT all) Mercedes Benz models, as well as many Japanese brands (usually those built in Japan, not here in the US) and some Chrysler vehicles. And don't get me started on brand spanking new Teslas like we have here in California. Yep, the paint responds differently here in Cali on brand new Teslas because the paint continues to cure while they're being transported across country, so their actually easier to work on in, say, Florida. Note the word "easier" and not necessarily "easy". Any Florida member reading this who've work on a Tesla knows what I mean. Awesome cars, no doubt, and the haze is no indication whatsoever as to quality of paint, so let's be really clear on that. In some cases the haze is fairly easy to deal with, in others it's a massive challenge. And not just for weekend warriors like yourself. We used to conduct an extremely high level training program that drew some of the best pro detailers from all over the world, and the most commonly requested topic was dealing with these nasty, haze prone paints. With most of these, it doesn't matter one little bit what tool you use, what compound you use, or even what pad you use. Certainly some combinations will create more or less haze, depending on the vehicle, but you're experiencing something that is becoming more and more common in the auto industry - really touch sensitive paint.

Now, with that bit of background out of the way - and to let you know that you're definitely not alone! - let's look at what we can do to eliminate the haze for you. The first logical step is to follow the Ultimate Compound/Red pad with Ultimate Polish on a yellow pad, and back off on the pressure. The problem here is, sometimes this works, sometimes it only works part way (ie, it's better, but still not quite what you're looking for). In that case, sometimes you need to either use the black finishing pad, or do one pass with UP on the yellow, and another with the black. It should be noted here that this issue is so pervasive that just a few months ago we introduced a new Mirror Glaze Professional Polish, M210, to address this exact issue. We're finding that in almost all cases, a bit of M210 on a yellow foam pad and a fairly short buffing cycle does the trick. Like - BAM!!! - the haze is gone. As an example: a few months ago I detailed a Ferrari 360 Spider that I've been taking care of for several years. Non metallic red (Rosso Corsa, for the tifosi out there) and it usually hazes pretty noticeably even with a finishing polish. Not horrible, but not where I want it, so I've always had to sort of play with things to get it to work. M210 wasn't quite released yet but since I work here, well you get the picture. A bit of M210 on yellow foam on my DA, and BAM!!!, zero haze.

So, you can either experiment with a few different processes and maybe get a bit frustrated before figuring it all out (and trust us, this can be insanely frustrating in the worst case scenarios, even for a seasoned pro) or just pick up some M210 and be done with it.

Hi Mike, thanks for the quick response. 1) Why does the BMW seem to like "Black Wax"? Is this being discontinued? Should I stock up on this...it looks sooooo liquid. Applied with the micro-fiber on the DA it just shines and glows. A little streaky but I'm sure that will work out when the temp gets over 40.
2) The cloud from the UC seems to be embedded into the clear. Is this something like the clear sucking up the SMATs or the polymer chains moving around or what?
Will get the M210 and also do a before and after pic.
Thanks

[Atalanta]

Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

Oh and when using the UC and the Red pad it will spin for a little like everything is cool then GRAB suddenly! That's when it makes the cloud.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

Hi Mike, thanks for the quick response. 1) Why does the BMW seem to like "Black Wax"? Is this being discontinued? Should I stock up on this...it looks sooooo liquid. Applied with the micro-fiber on the DA it just shines and glows. A little streaky but I'm sure that will work out when the temp gets over 40.

Happy to assist! Most dark colored cars like Black Wax because that product has a lot of polishing oils in that help to darken and richen the color. That's something that darker colors really like because they can show off the effects of the polish. The protection is primarily carnauba, though there are some light polymers in it, and carnauba tends to look great on dark colors even though it's not as durable as synthetic polymers. It's most likely going to be phased out in the US as sales aren't all that strong, even though it's a great product. The streakiness is likely down to a mix of the low temps you applied at, how thickly you applied it, and how soon you wiped off the residue. As temps warm up, just as you suspect, things should get better in that regard.

2) The cloud from the UC seems to be embedded into the clear. Is this something like the clear sucking up the SMATs or the polymer chains moving around or what?
Will get the M210 and also do a before and after pic.
Thanks

What's actually happening is you're getting very tiny little tick marks in the paint. This is what we call "DA haze" because it only happens with DA polishers and not rotary polishers. That's due to the movement of the pad on the paint, and the sensitivity of the paint itself. Essentially what's happening is the process creates countless little, super tiny, hook shaped scratches in the paint. You know how a typical swirl mark looks sort of grey or white in color when direct light hits it, but the surrounding paint is still the original dark color? Well, imagine if those swirls were a fraction of a millimeter in length, but there was a zillion or so (that's a real number, right?) packed together super close to each other. That white or grey appearance you get from a swirl is now coming from tiny little marks packed so close together that the paint now takes on a greyish appearance. This is super noticeable with non metallic black paint - the swirls are gone, but the paint now looks completely grey instead of black. And this is where the struggle is - trying to touch the paint so lightly that you remove these tick marks instead of just creating a whole new batch of them. Sometimes the best approach is to buff for a super short amount of time - that way you fix the issue without giving things time to then recreate the problem. And oddly enough, sometimes using a cutting pad works better than finishing pad. That's because cutting pads are usually more firm or stiff, so they don't bounce around so much on the paint. Remember, this kind of paint just does not like to be touched, so getting in and out quickly for finishing is often the best approach. But paint systems vary so widely there's no real text book scenario to dealing with the really finicky ones. It's trial and error. And sometimes frustration and anger. But M210 should fix that.


Oh, wait a doggone second here........ another new product you should absolutely LOVE is our brand new 3-In-1 Wax. It's sort of like Black Wax in that it contains a decent amount of polishing oils, but it's got great cutting ability if you push it hard, and it offers polymer protection instead of carnauba. It does an amazing job of making black paint "blacker". You might want to pick up some of that at your local auto parts store and give it a spin. Heck, even use that red pad with it - you might be stunned at the amount of defect removal you can get with it. It's almost a compound, polish and synthetic polymer in one. Killer stuff (and I swear I'm not biased - it seriously is THAT good).

[Atalanta]

Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

Hey Mike, Was just looking at that gigantic M210 bottle and was wondering what I was going to do with that. Would 3n1 also remove the haze?
Another thing...the Black Wax is quite beautiful. Applied it hours before it snowed... it didn't survive the two days of snow we had. Does it need to cure for several hours or something. I reapplied it today after trying to UC the hood. It was sooo liquid that it gave me some hope of fixing the hood.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

M210 is also available by the quart - I'm assuming the gigantic bottle you were looking at is the gallon size??? Give 3-In-1 a go first - I think it will surprise you.

[Atalanta]

Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

Mike, thanks for explaining the DA Grab. I can see what you are talking about with the DA and that's exactly what it feels like when it GRABs! Should I try a rotary?

[Atalanta]

Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

The gigantic bottle was the quart. :\

[Atalanta]

Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

Thanks for your help! I have a bottle of Ultimate Polish sitting. Maybe try that by hand to avoid the DA Haze? or should I use a Rotary? Where does Ultimate Polish sit as far as aggressiveness and polishing oils compared to M210 and 3n1?

[Michael Stoops]

Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

Mike, thanks for explaining the DA Grab. I can see what you are talking about with the DA and that's exactly what it feels like when it GRABs! Should I try a rotary?

No, do NOT go rotary without plenty of training first. If you think DA haze is bad, wait till you see what a rotary can do when things go wrong. Yeah, you'll burn the paint and the only thing fixing that sort of mistake is a body shop when they repaint the panel. Rotaries are incredible tools, but the learning curve is long and steep.

The gigantic bottle was the quart. :\

I was afraid you'd say that! It is a pro level product after all, and those guys are working all day every day with these products, hence the gallon sizes!!

Thanks for your help! I have a bottle of Ultimate Polish sitting. Maybe try that by hand to avoid the DA Haze? or should I use a Rotary? Where does Ultimate Polish sit as far as aggressiveness and polishing oils compared to M210 and 3n1?

By all means give Ultimate Polish a go, but I'm still sort of leaning toward 3-In-1 as the "killer app" for your car.

[Atalanta]

Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

Hi Mike, Ultimate Polish didn

[Atalanta]

Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

Oops.
Hi mike, the Ultimate polish didn’t work. It just got worse but now a three inch square. Tried it by hand with both the yellow and a microfiber. Maybe something without white abrasives? Like a cleaner wax? The black wax was not able to lift it this time.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

Go with the 3-In-1, that will likely be the best bet to cure your issues. I'd use the yellow foam with the DA Power System you have. Oddly enough, working by hand can actually be more difficult than using a tool, even one as basic as the DA Power System.

[Atalanta]

Re: HELP! Ultimate Compound harsh on BMW clearcoat

Go with the 3-In-1, that will likely be the best bet to cure your issues. I'd use the yellow foam with the DA Power System you have. Oddly enough, working by hand can actually be more difficult than using a tool, even one as basic as the DA Power System.

Thank you Mike. Been messing with the Black Wax (DA with yellow pad, micro-fiber, work time, speed etc). The Black Wax did remove the UP square of white haze with the micro-fiber pad, drill DA and just patience, working it. It seems like if the temperature was a little warmer that maybe the Black Wax could work the UC DA Haze out with the micro-fiber pad and the Drill DA. The yellow pad was causing even the Black Wax to cloud but was able to work it off with the micro-fiber pad. The Black Wax is sooooo mercurial looking and smells good. The clearcoat just ***** it up, like healing lotion. Kinda like putting coconut oil on dry skin. I even figured out how to get the swirl marks and 3000 grit sanding out with the Black Wax. Black Wax seems to be this BMW's face cream. Maybe Megs needs to market it as "healing lotion for dry clear coats" and not call it a protective "Wax" as it just fell off with the snow the other day (needs a spray wax topper like UPW or Beadmaker, which is OK considering the clearcoat healing properties and mercurial gloss).

The roof of the car is very hazed from the UC . Never had this hazing issue with Menzerna and Klasse on the BMW. I just compared UK MSDS to UC/UP and looked at a video of 3n1 and it's also WHITE which makes me leary of it. The local stores don't have the 3n1. Will have to order from Amazon. Will let you know.