Will the plane fly?

[Jeff Smith]

I spoke with 1 of our flight test engineers this morning before I left work. His thoughts were the aircraft cannot fly. He pointed out something we had not looked at. With the aircraft not being able to develop any ground speed there would not be enough airflow over the aircraft control surfaces (Flaps) to be able to get the aircraft up into the air.

Without the airflow over the control surfaces you would not be able to bring the nose up and get it off the ground.


He started to explain about the lack of lift needed but had to get up to the Pre-Flight Brief and did not have time. Maybe I can catch him again tomorrow.

[DFTowel]

Originally posted by Jeff Smith
...He pointed out something we had not looked at. With the aircraft not being able to develop any ground speed there would not be enough airflow over the aircraft control surfaces (Flaps) to be able to get the aircraft up into the air....

You must not have been reading the responses as several of us, from the start, said exactly this.

[Jeff Smith]

Originally posted by DFTowel
You must not have been reading the responses as several of us, from the start, said exactly this.

We had been looking at lift. Lift is different the the air moving over the control surfaces.

[Jeff Smith]

Originally posted by Jeff Smith
We had been looking at lift. Lift is different the the air moving over the control surfaces. It is irrelevant at this point. I think most can agree the question, as put, is too vague to consider all the possibilities. I just figured I would post his thoughts.

[SpoiledMan]

So what if we have the aircraft sitting on this same conveyer but it's moving the OPPOSITE direction so as to make the plane move forward. Can the plane STOP using it's reverse thrusters?

[Mike Phillips]

I think we should also take a moment to consider the condition of the finish and whether the plane needs to be clayed before polishing or waxing.

[SpoiledMan]

From my understanding in the original question the answer is obvious as it's a Meguiar's Corporate plane.

[Jeff Smith]

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
I think we should also take a moment to consider the condition of the finish and whether the plane needs to be clayed before polishing or waxing.

Mike,
We've already had enough detailing enthusiasts on this thing to pretty much guarantee it would be one sharp lookin' rig whether it flies or not.

[Mosca]

Look at this from another perspective (the plane won't fly, by the way, and this is easily confirmable by conducting the experiment).

If the plane COULD fly, then why do we have all these airports all over the place, with these long runways? Why did anyone bother to invent helicopters, when they could've simply put a little motorized treadmill, running at 150 mph, under the wheels of a Ford Tri-motor? Why not have conveyor belts in our driveways, for personal flight?

It's simple. The wheels don't generate the power, but the movement of the wheels over the ground MOVES THE PLANE THROUGH THE AIR and generates the lift necessary for flight. If the wheels' movement on the ground (which then moves the plane through the air) is negated by the reverse movement of the conveyor belt then the plane does not move through the air and there is no flight.

[the other pc]

Originally posted by Mike Phillips
I think we should also take a moment to consider the condition of the finish and whether the plane needs to be clayed before polishing or waxing.

At least we agreed on the Gold Class.


PC.

[Jeff Smith]

See! See! I told you! Mosca is East of the Mississippi. See the trend here? Huh?

[the other pc]

Originally posted by Don
...Back to the treadmill... The plane does not rely on the wheels for motion, we all agree. HOWEVER, even if you take away the wheels and use skids, or pontoons (in the case of the seaplane), the plane is still permitted to move forward in space (air and ground) until lift velocity is reached AS LONG AS THE AIR SURROUNDING THE PLANE REACHES LIFT VELOCITY IN RELATION TO THE PLANES FUSILAGE...

This is true. No disagreement here.

Originally posted by Don
... The treadmill prevents ANY forward motion of the aircraft therefore no lift is created...

This is not true. The conveyor would only prevent forward motion if the brakes are on or the tires are chocked. If the tires are freewheeling the conveyor does not affect forward motion.

Originally posted by Don
...The rocket in space is a nice, but misleading example. The force of the engine's thrust backward allows the rocket to travel forward, in relation to the space around it. Space itself is assumed to be motionless, with only the solid bodies within space having motion. Therefore in the motionlessness of space the rocket moves forward.

This was meant to point out that that you don't need to "push off" the ground, water or (in the case of the rocket) air to develop thrust. It comes from "throwing" molecules backwards. It is true that for a prop or jet those molecules come form the ambient air.


PC.

[SpoiledMan]

Take a toy that has wheels. Hold the toy in one hand and place it over a book. Let go of the toy and quickly pull the book backwards and away from the toy. The wheels will spin and the toy will move in the same direction as the book right. Good.

Now use your hands to generate a forward movement(thrust) with that toy over the book and it doesn't matter what direction you move the book as the thrust isn't generated by the book but by your hand(plane's engines) and the plane moves forward.

This isn't about longer or shorter runways but the idea that the wheel speed is independent of the air speed. Rolling the conveyer as fast as it could go wouldn't stop the plane from taking off as the engines use the air(again independent from the conveyer's speed) to **** into the engines and push out to thrust them forward.

[gb387]

Would you get any "product sling" if you applied Endurance to the tires? If so, how do I prevent it, to further explain my thoughts on this subject?

[the other pc]

Originally posted by Mosca
... (the plane won't fly, by the way, and this is easily confirmable by conducting the experiment)...

Of course it would fly, and the experiment would confirm it.

Originally posted by Mosca
...If the plane COULD fly, then why do we have all these airports all over the place, with these long runways? ...

As I said before, the motion of the conveyor has no effect (in this simplified example). The take off roll is exactly the same distance with or without it.

As a side note, long runways are relatively simple and easy to build. STOL aircraft are not. You see STOL, VTOL, rotor lift, catapult launched/cable arrested and other specialized aircraft used when long runways are unavailable or impractical.

Originally posted by Mosca
... Why did anyone bother to invent helicopters, when they could've simply put a little motorized treadmill, running at 150 mph, under the wheels of a Ford Tri-motor? Why not have conveyor belts in our driveways, for personal flight?...

As I said, the conveyor doesn't help the take-off so it's pointless. Catapults would help, but runways are much safer and more practical.

Helicopters are a wonderful thing. They're primarily held aloft by stubbornness.

Originally posted by Mosca
...It's simple. The wheels don't generate the power, but the movement of the wheels over the ground MOVES THE PLANE THROUGH THE AIR and generates the lift necessary for flight. If the wheels' movement on the ground (which then moves the plane through the air) is negated by the reverse movement of the conveyor belt then the plane does not move through the air and there is no flight.

No, the wheels do not move the plane. The wheels are free rolling. They're just along for the ride. Prop or jet thrust moves the plane.

The wheels would spin freely, at double the speed they would on a fixed runway. Since they're free spinning they have no effect on air speed.


PC.