Can some one tell me what caused this damage?

[nettech_gt]

So it rained a couple days last week and then these weird spots showed up on both the right and left rear quarter panels, some on the spoiler and roof. But no where else on the car. It is not hard water spots and I have been told by two different body shops it needs to be repainted to be repaired. However no one can clearly tell me the cause of the damage.... Out of curiosity I lightly scratched one of the spots on the spoiler with my finger nail and the clear coat chipped off.

[minnesotafisherman]

Re: Can some one tell me what caused this damage?

Hi there,

How long have you had the car, and has this area recently been repainted at all? It looks to me as if that is clear coat failure. I have this on my hood of my truck (the clear coat is bubbling up and peeling) and it was caused by poor preparation prior to painting. The previous owner hit a deer and had a replacement hood put on and had it cheaply repainted by Maaco.

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Can some one tell me what caused this damage?

The root cause may never be fully known (bad prep, poor spray job, etc - and that can be true of a respray or a factory paint job) but the rain itself is not the cause, it's just what finally uncovered it. You described the clear chipping off with your fingernail, plus the observation that this is only happening on the spoiler and roof. Those are pretty good indicators of clear coat failure where the clear is delaminating from the color coat. The heavy moisture you experienced recently most likely worked its way into cracks in the clear and just hastened the process a bit. The problem with clear coat failure is that once it starts there is no stopping it short of stripping the paint and repainting. As stated, this problem already existed, you just couldn't see it quite yet - the rain just made it painfully apparent.

[nettech_gt]

Re: Can some one tell me what caused this damage?

The root cause may never be fully known (bad prep, poor spray job, etc - and that can be true of a respray or a factory paint job) but the rain itself is not the cause, it's just what finally uncovered it. You described the clear chipping off with your fingernail, plus the observation that this is only happening on the spoiler and roof. Those are pretty good indicators of clear coat failure where the clear is delaminating from the color coat. The heavy moisture you experienced recently most likely worked its way into cracks in the clear and just hastened the process a bit. The problem with clear coat failure is that once it starts there is no stopping it short of stripping the paint and repainting. As stated, this problem already existed, you just couldn't see it quite yet - the rain just made it painfully apparent.

Thank you for your comments. However I find this really hard to belive. I have a signed document from the manager of a local Toyota collison center, stating that the damge "appears to be acid rain". Also if you look at this:
*No hyperlinks before 30 posts

The damage in my pictures looks more like "acid rain"


I bought this car new it has never been repainted and has been washed twice a month, detailed, once a year and hand waxed twice a year every year I have owned it. (6) There have been no harsh buffing pads or compounds/chemicals used on my car. ( I use only only Meguiars clay,waxes and polishes) I don't live in a harsh environment. I live in San Diego. It doesn't rain much, almost never snows, we don't have issues with salt. I next to never park under trees etc. and its garaged every day. I would also think the damage would not appear all at once as it did. The damage on the left and right rear quarter panels look just like water drops that dried....

[Markus Kleis]

Re: Can some one tell me what caused this damage?

Thank you for your comments. However I find this really hard to belive. I have a signed document from the manager of a local Toyota collison center, stating that the damge "appears to be acid rain". Also if you look at this:
*No hyperlinks before 30 posts

The damage in my pictures looks more like "acid rain"


I bought this car new it has never been repainted and has been washed twice a month, detailed, once a year and hand waxed twice a year every year I have owned it. (6) There have been no harsh buffing pads or compounds/chemicals used on my car. ( I use only only Meguiars clay,waxes and polishes) I don't live in a harsh environment. I live in San Diego. It doesn't rain much, almost never snows, we don't have issues with salt. I next to never park under trees etc. and its garaged every day. I would also think the damage would not appear all at once as it did. The damage on the left and right rear quarter panels look just like water drops that dried....

I removed the link in order to comply with general forum rules, but I will also add the images were just digital recreations, so I wouldn't put too much faith into that.

Also, Mr. Stoops did not state that you have X or Y problem definitively, he only shared theories. It is impossible to know for sure, especially given we don't know true vehicles history and only have an image or two to go by.

One thing to keep in mind, however, is that A.) Someone working at a car dealership is EXTREMELY unlikely to be a paint expert, and almost 100% for sure has less knowledge and experience working with paint than Mr. Stoops, and B.) If that is the dealer that sold you the car, it would make sense that the dealer would rather blame acid rain than admit possible fault, right?

I have worked at car dealers before, and sadly, they rarely have any knowledge on paint, and are often (not always) willing to go to extremes to avoid paying for fixes.

Just some things to consider.

[nettech_gt]

Re: Can some one tell me what caused this damage?

I removed the link in order to comply with general forum rules, but I will also add the images were just digital recreations, so I wouldn't put too much faith into that.

Also, Mr. Stoops did not state that you have X or Y problem definitively, he only shared theories. It is impossible to know for sure, especially given we don't know true vehicles history and only have an image or two to go by.

One thing to keep in mind, however, is that A.) Someone working at a car dealership is EXTREMELY unlikely to be a paint expert, and almost 100% for sure has less knowledge and experience working with paint than Mr. Stoops, and B.) If that is the dealer that sold you the car, it would make sense that the dealer would rather blame acid rain than admit possible fault, right?

I have worked at car dealers before, and sadly, they rarely have any knowledge on paint, and are often (not always) willing to go to extremes to avoid paying for fixes.

Just some things to consider.

Actually the collision center I went to is not a dealership. Its a body shop that the dearlship uses and is offsite about 5 miles from the dealrship. He had no reason to "go to extremes" to avoid having to pay to repair it. As I was not trying to convince him Toyota or the dealership needs to pay for it. I was looking for professional unbiased opinion.

My plan is to get my entire car repainted. Once this is done and paint has completely cured. Is there a reason for me to wax/wash my car more often? Or should I use any specific products to prevent what ever caused this mysterious damage to occur again? THANX!

[SVT Lightning]

Re: Can some one tell me what caused this damage?

I bought this car new it has never been repainted and has been washed twice a month, detailed, once a year and hand waxed twice a year every year I have owned it. (6) There have been no harsh buffing pads or compounds/chemicals used on my car. ( I use only only Meguiars clay,waxes and polishes) I don't live in a harsh environment. I live in San Diego.

The white "hazy" spots in the second pic look exactly like what is beginning to happen on the roof of my truck.....CC failure. You mention that you only wax twice a year. Considering that the sun in San Diego can be considered a "harsh" environment......twice a year may not have offered enough protection. Sun is a big cause of CC failure. http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46075

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Can some one tell me what caused this damage?

It is not hard water spots and I have been told by two different body shops it needs to be repainted to be repaired. However no one can clearly tell me the cause of the damage.... Out of curiosity I lightly scratched one of the spots on the spoiler with my finger nail and the clear coat chipped off.

I have a signed document from the manager of a local Toyota collison center, stating that the damge "appears to be acid rain".

Ah, you didn't tell us that in your original post, just that two body shops said it needs to be repainted. Now, it may be caused by acid rain, but it is still clear coat failure. Of course, being that you're in San Diego and therefore just an hours drive south of us, we kind of doubt it's really due to acid rain. We don't get really bad acid rain here like many parts of Asia do - heck, we don't get much rain here at all.

I bought this car new it has never been repainted and has been washed twice a month, detailed, once a year and hand waxed twice a year every year I have owned it. (6) There have been no harsh buffing pads or compounds/chemicals used on my car. ( I use only only Meguiars clay,waxes and polishes) I don't live in a harsh environment. I live in San Diego. It doesn't rain much, almost never snows, we don't have issues with salt. I next to never park under trees etc. and its garaged every day. I would also think the damage would not appear all at once as it did. The damage on the left and right rear quarter panels look just like water drops that dried....

If the issue is not caused by acid rain, which we sort of doubt for the reasons outlined above, then it may actually be a defect in the painting process. Something could easily have gone wrong in the prep or the application of the paint itself. It's funny how we easily accept that any number of mechanical issues can become warranty claims, but we rarely think of manufacturing defects in the painting process. But it does happen. But warranty issues with paint can be difficult to deal with - even dealerships and manufacturers find it darn near impossible to trace and confirm as a manufacturing defect, especially since a good bit of time usually needs to pass before the issue shows up. And if it was a manufacturing defect then the clear was going to fail sooner or later, no matter how much you babied the paint. It certainly doesn't sound like you did anything wrong that would have caused this.

So, could it be acid rain? Yep. Could it be a manufacturing defect? Yep. Can you definitely prove that either is the cause? Probably not. But it's definitely clear coat failure, no matter the mechanism that initiated.

For the record, simple acid rain etching will be just that, etching in the paint. At least at first. But your description of being to flake it off with your fingernail means this is much more than just an etch - the clear is failing and it's going to spread.

My plan is to get my entire car repainted. Once this is done and paint has completely cured. Is there a reason for me to wax/wash my car more often? Or should I use any specific products to prevent what ever caused this mysterious damage to occur again? THANX!

Provided they do proper prep work and mix the paint properly, which any decent body shop will do, then once 60-90 days has passed and the paint is cured we would suggest you continue with what you did in the past, with one exception - wax the car more than twice a year, especially if it spends a lot of time outside. We would suggest doing so every two to three months here in SoCal, preferably with a synthetic product like NXT Generation Tech Wax 2.0.

[nettech_gt]

Re: Can some one tell me what caused this damage?

Ah, you didn't tell us that in your original post, just that two body shops said it needs to be repainted. Now, it may be caused by acid rain, but it is still clear coat failure. Of course, being that you're in San Diego and therefore just an hours drive south of us, we kind of doubt it's really due to acid rain. We don't get really bad acid rain here like many parts of Asia do - heck, we don't get much rain here at all.



If the issue is not caused by acid rain, which we sort of doubt for the reasons outlined above, then it may actually be a defect in the painting process. Something could easily have gone wrong in the prep or the application of the paint itself. It's funny how we easily accept that any number of mechanical issues can become warranty claims, but we rarely think of manufacturing defects in the painting process. But it does happen. But warranty issues with paint can be difficult to deal with - even dealerships and manufacturers find it darn near impossible to trace and confirm as a manufacturing defect, especially since a good bit of time usually needs to pass before the issue shows up. And if it was a manufacturing defect then the clear was going to fail sooner or later, no matter how much you babied the paint. It certainly doesn't sound like you did anything wrong that would have caused this.

So, could it be acid rain? Yep. Could it be a manufacturing defect? Yep. Can you definitely prove that either is the cause? Probably not. But it's definitely clear coat failure, no matter the mechanism that initiated.

For the record, simple acid rain etching will be just that, etching in the paint. At least at first. But your description of being to flake it off with your fingernail means this is much more than just an etch - the clear is failing and it's going to spread.


Provided they do proper prep work and mix the paint properly, which any decent body shop will do, then once 60-90 days has passed and the paint is cured we would suggest you continue with what you did in the past, with one exception - wax the car more than twice a year, especially if it spends a lot of time outside. We would suggest doing so every two to three months here in SoCal, preferably with a synthetic product like NXT Generation Tech Wax 2.0.

Once again thank you for your comments. Just so I'm clear when I say I detail and hand wax twice a year. I mean I hand wax twice and wash,clay,polish and wax (with buffer) (total 3 times waxed). You are suggesting I should hand wax every 2-3 months in addition to the detail? I already use NXT wax. THANX!

[greg0303]

Re: Can some one tell me what caused this damage?

Don't wax your freshly painted car for at least 30 days (or even longer if told so by paint shop) but you could apply some pure polish to it.
I hope this helps:

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/hot-topics-frequently-asked-questions/26967-don-t-wax-your-car-least-30-days.html

[Michael Stoops]

Re: Can some one tell me what caused this damage?

Once again thank you for your comments. Just so I'm clear when I say I detail and hand wax twice a year. I mean I hand wax twice and wash,clay,polish and wax (with buffer) (total 3 times waxed). You are suggesting I should hand wax every 2-3 months in addition to the detail? I already use NXT wax. THANX!

Yes. Your detailing process is great for removing light defects from the paint and keeping the gloss level very high. Wax is a sacrificial barrier that slowly degrades over time. With all the sunshine we get here in SoCal it's a good idea to wax more than 2 or 3 times per year, especially if the car spends a lot of time outside. If the thought of waxing that often is really off putting, then a great alternative is to use UQW every time you wash the car. That process will add a whopping 5 minutes to your wash regimen.

Even so, if there is a defect in the painting process that ultimately caused the clear coat failure, nothing you do is going to prevent the inevitable from happening.

[nettech_gt]

Re: Can some one tell me what caused this damage?

yes. Your detailing process is great for removing light defects from the paint and keeping the gloss level very high. Wax is a sacrificial barrier that slowly degrades over time. With all the sunshine we get here in socal it's a good idea to wax more than 2 or 3 times per year, especially if the car spends a lot of time outside. If the thought of waxing that often is really off putting, then a great alternative is to use uqw every time you wash the car. That process will add a whopping 5 minutes to your wash regimen.

Even so, if there is a defect in the painting process that ultimately caused the clear coat failure, nothing you do is going to prevent the inevitable from happening.

thanx!!

[Flash Gordon]

Re: Can some one tell me what caused this damage?

Ahh, another case solved